Hello Derek,

Thanks again for your patience. It has been a frustrating week of traveling. One of our older boys from the orphanage I oversee got accepted to a great university in Thailand. I left with him last week but he was issued the wrong visa. We tried to fix the problem in Thailand but were unsuccessful for the most inane reasons that accumulated to the point of taking a few years off my life  We had to take the long journey back across the border and have been waiting on the embassy here to issue him the correct visa in the hope that he can return to Thailand tomorrow…but delays keep arising. I would rather not think God predetermined it before time began but has allowed it and will ultimately use it for our good IF we respond to it appropriately (i.e. not killing any embassy workers) 

I would like to begin by laying out some needed borders to frame our discussion from this point on. I am committed to the view that God has not decreed or predetermined all evil because I am committed to a hermeneutical principle I have coined “The Principle of Moral Perfection.” (PMP) God, in virtue of being God, is the greatest conceivable being, yes? And it is greater to be morally perfect than not to be morally perfect, yes? As such it seems rather obvious and morally obligatory to hold that a being who has predetermined all evil is less morally perfect than a being who has refrained from predetermining all evil.

We are told that God hates evil and wickedness and loves righteousness, that God abhors evil and wickedness and that he is provoked by evil (would God decree his own provocation?). Moreover we are told that God cannot lie, cannot be tempted by evil nor tempt others to commit evil (much less decree that they commit evil!) and that God’s eyes are too pure to behold evil (much less decree it as certain!). Therefore I find that both logic, morality and biblical consistency require me to be committed to the view that God is morally perfect and therefore not the ultimate origin and cause of evil in virtue of sovereignly decreeing all evil and rendering it certain (if not necessary).

If the “Principle of Moral Perfection” (PMP) is true than we are bound by it just as much as we are bound to the basic principle “God exists.” With this in view I think you can understand why it is incumbent upon us to return to passages that apparently at first glance seems to violate PMF and ask ourselves, “Are there other possible, valid interpretations available that do not violate PMF?” I have become convinced that there exists no Calvinist proof-text that cannot be re-interpreted in a manner consistent with biblical exegesis and which does not violate PMF.

So those are my cards I am putting on the table. We both approach this topic with preconceived assumptions that guide what we are willing to concede—that I admit. It is important that we understand this because the divide between Calvinism and Arminianism cannot be resolved through simply appealing to scripture.

If it could it would have been at some point in the past 500 years. Both sides are using scripture—sometimes the same ones! But scripture alone is not sufficient. A person can have all the mosaic pieces available and still construct the wrong picture because he is working from an incorrect framework in how the “pieces fit.” The scriptures are like such mosaic pieces—and we are all to aware of how they can be moved and shuffled around to support a host of wrong theologies like Oneness Pentecostalism, Mormonism, etc. The argument can only be “won” by recognizing which framework is correct. Frameworks ultimately determine what we filter in and what we filter out, what is possible to concede to and what is impossible to allow.

Your framework is that God has meticulously determined and planned every evil thought, desire and choice—such that it MUST take place (because you assume if that is not true God could no longer be extolled as sovereign?) Moreover you assume the scriptures support your notion that God has decreed every evil choice throughout history.

In contrast my framework is that if the Principal of Moral Perfection is true—if God’s nature truly is morally perfect and righteous—then the claim “God decrees all evil and renders it certain” is a false claim. The question then is, “Whose framework is correct?” I can’t think of a greater cause to defend than the glory, holiness and righteousness of God against false, theological claims that logically hold him to be the ultimate origin, determiner and author of every evil (the claim is too dangerous and insidious to “punt” to mystery or paradox every time the need arises to absolve God of moral responsibility or escape logical implications). I truly feel the very character and glory of God is at stake in this discussion Derek. I hope you can appreciate that fact—for it is where most Arminians are coming from today. (I honestly wonder where you are coming from? Fidelity to scripture? What would make you want to defend the thought that God unilaterally decreed everything from the color socks you choose to child abuse, domestic violence and the “script” of every perverse porn film?)

Thankfully Calvinists have not cornered the market on God’s glory—despite the attempts of Piper to convince Christendom otherwise. Indeed Arminians like myself believe high-profile Calvinists, like Piper, have so thoroughly made God out to be morally ambiguous that “God’s glory” has become indistinguishable from a cosmic being of supreme power willing whatever. But God cannot “will whatever.” God cannot lie and cannot tempt men to commit evil. Yet in Piper’s portrait, God’s exercise of supreme power “becomes the good” rather than being dictated “by the good.” No longer is God’s morally perfect nature the paradigm of goodness that determines God’s willful use of power. Instead God’s will and exercise of raw power determines what is good. (This is a form of radical voluntarism i.e.– something is right simply because God wills it).

All of this is misguided. God’s glory is ultimately not his exercise of will through supreme, raw power—but his moral perfection that determines the use and LIMITS of divine power. God’s perfect goodness is his glory! That is why God literally said to Moses, “I will cause my goodness (glory) to pass before you and I will proclaim the name Yahweh before you” (Exo. 33:19).

I’m slightly digressing to make a point–sorry. Just to be clear, my underlying contention is that the Arminian framework preserves God’s glory and moral perfection whereas the Calvinist framework makes God the cause and author of evil (the very antithesis of glory). You can deny this but you have yet to parse the difference between God’s holy mind decreeing that evil occur and authoring that evil occur.

Every theological school of thought has its own “horse pills” to swallow. Ultimately it is about choosing a theological position that has the least amount of interpretive problems and preserves God’s holy character and glory from derision. With that said let me address some of your additional comments and then some of the verses you believe commit you to the framework that God decreed all your decisions—including your sin.

You state:

“Scripture and the believer’s experience support both divine determinism and genuine free will of some sort (though not exactly the libertarian variety).”

There is little I can say to this claim that I haven’t already said. First your earlier concession that genuine freedom must entail genuine possibilities “to do otherwise” IS the libertarian position! Secondly the weakness of your view is that from God’s decretive standpoint we are not genuinely free to do other than what God decreed. God’s decree acts deterministically upon our wills and from God’s decretive standpoint we are not free to choose contrary to God’s determination. You don’t deny this because you intuitively know to do so renders divine determinism—and thus your view— meaningless. Moreover in your view multiple possibilities or outcomes do not REALLY exist because you concede that only one outcome has been determined (and therefore must occur). In the end your view posits merely the illusion of free-will in that we are ignorant of God’s decree before we choose in accordance with God’s sole decree. And of course the reason we choose in accordance with God’s decree is because God’s decree causally constrains our choice to one—the one he determined. Thus again your view collapses into causal determinism that invalidates genuine freedom, genuine contingency and genuine possibility.

But you deny all this. You deny that humans are merely experiencing the illusion of free-will and you assert that genuine possibilities of choice REALLY exist—despite the fact that every result and outcome has been predetermined. You admittedly cannot resolve the logical dilemma and obvious contradiction inherent to your view and so you again appeal to inscrutable mysteries. You state:

“I am not at all shy about ascribing great limitations and even apparent contradictions to our perspective.”

Yes we are limited in our knowledge—I agree. But you are asserting contradictions that are in every sense incoherent and absurd. Derek, no matter what I say that logically or scripturally invalidates your view, you can simply say, “The contradiction only exists in our human perspective.” It is un-falsifiable because it can’t be challenged by argument, logic…words! This seems to me a tad dangerous—if not gnostic. You are more or less saying your view is absurd from our human perspective but its ultimate truth lies hidden behind the curtain of mystery and exists in the realm of a secret, hidden perspective known only to God.

I think we have both exhausted all we can say on this matter—so we have to let any undecided readers decide (presumably freely?) for themselves 
What is left is your contention:

“Our paradoxical human perspective is even expressed in Scripture.”

To prove your point you sought to enlist Proverbs 19:21 ‘Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the LORD that will stand.’”

And before that you highlighted:

Proverbs 16:9 The heart of man plans his way, but the LORD establishes his steps.

Proverbs 20:24 A man’s steps are from the LORD; how then can man understand his way?

I see these verses abound all over Calvinist forums and so in my next post I will attempt to deal with the common use of Proverbs by Calvinists to draw forth proof-texts to substantiate a view of meticulous, divine determinism. I hope to highlight why your use of Proverbs is ill-conceived from the start.

I may be back on the road tomorrow but will try to post it up if time allows. Again I want reconfirm that I have enjoyed the dialogue. If I ever sound flustered or blunt just know it comes from a good place  Sometimes blogs are a poor medium for debate and reflection.

(Continued in subsequent post…)